OK I just have to ask...

johnnyd · 2005-11-13 04:16:45

I've been watching the confession videos and it seems like in almost every one I watch, the girl talks about having experiences with other girls. Here are some of the things I've seen

1. fantasizes about women during masturbation
2. prefers the site of a naked woman to a naked man
3. enjoys having sex with other women
4. prefers threesomes involving 2 girls rather than 2 guys
5. is just outright homosexual

I am not homophobic, but the idea of being with another man just completely grosses me out. Why do most of these women have homosexual experiences? Do women prefer other women to men???

What's going on here? Are we doomed as a species?

Last edited by johnnyd (2005-11-13 04:19:06)

Garybob · 2005-11-13 07:37:33

Johnny:

I don't think these or many heterosexual women prefer other women to men. Rather, I think they prefer that men understand them sexually the way another woman can.

Most guys are totally selfish bastards when it comes to sex. Guys, especially younger guys, have no idea what foreplay is, nor do they really care. The goal is to get inside of a woman as quickly as possible and get themselves off. But this is not just limited to young men, plenty of older men are the same way. They get in a habit of thinking that an orgasm for them is the end all. How many sex clips have you seen where a guy actually spends a great deal of time touching and kissing before going right to intercourse? Bloody few I'd bet if any! Most sex clips show a guy doing very little and then cumming on a woman's face [something I personally find abhorent] or somewhere else on her body. And to boot, if a guy is doing something that his female partner find pleasing, he is too dumb to read her body language and continue. Most guys just can't seem to get it right!

Women, I think enjoy the before AND the after. That's not to say that women don't enjoy the act of intercourse but arousal for women is important. Touching, caressing, kissing, even teasing....all of this can make the sexual experience for a woman so much more enjoyable and satisfying.

When these women say they prefer women or want homosexual experiences, I believe that they are really looking for something they need sexually that are not getting in their heterosexual experiences. Are we doomed as a species? I think not but we are doomed to have far fewer truely pleasing sexual experiences unless we, as men, learn to broaden our sense of consideration in the bedroom. That's just my two cents.

Jo · 2005-11-13 11:28:13

Garybob wrote:

Women, I think enjoy the before AND the after. That's not to say that women don't enjoy the act of intercourse but arousal for women is important. Touching, caressing, kissing, even teasing....all of this can make the sexual experience for a woman so much more enjoyable and satisfying.
When these women say they prefer women or want homosexual experiences, I believe that they are really looking for something they need sexually that are not getting in their heterosexual experiences. Are we doomed as a species? I think not but we are doomed to have far fewer truely pleasing sexual experiences unless we, as men, learn to broaden our sense of consideration in the bedroom. That's just my two cents.

I couldn't have had better words than you, gary!

And - it's not just worth two lousy cents!

erdna · 2005-11-13 16:59:39

johnnyd : A lot of women feel more confortable with girls about sex without being actually in love. They feel the same, have the same body, react the same way... then it's easier in a way to get their fun. And remember, women are extremely curious about other girls. Having sex together is a way to compare all parts of their body to check out their seduction "tools".
I see also a kind of challenge against to moral they have been educated with (I already mentioned that in precedent posts). A way to say : '' this is my body and I do whatever I want with it". Even if a lot of them say they have had some sexual experience with other girl, most of them mention they still prefer to do it with a guy for the emotional point of view.
I am not promoting homosexuality but it seems sex between girls is probably just like a game, something cool like submitting a video on BA.
It's up to us guys, to get a better knowledge about their sexual needs as :1) what they want 2) how long they want it 3) which way they like it the best etc.
According to many sex books, in North America, the average time for a male to reach his ejaculation during intercourse is 2 minutes. This is not with such a statistics we can challenge another girl pleasing her girlfriend.

Portuguese Man'O War · 2005-11-13 18:24:18

Well, I actually identify with lesbians a lot because, like them, I really fail to see why on earth anyone of either sex could possibly prefer us men to girls. The staggering majority of heterosexual women is a source of endless wonder to me, to be honest.

johnnyd · 2005-11-13 21:38:56

Interesting. I think the replies make a lot of sense. It has never occurred to me that women might prefer the sensitivity of another woman without really preferring women. However, I think this is only a partial explanation and doesn't really explain it completely.

For instance, if a woman prefers sensitivity, why doesn't she fantasize about foreplay with a sensitive male lover? Why would she fantasize about other females during masturbation? Since it's her fantasy, she could make the man as sensitive or as sexually 'skilled' as she liked. I've seen many web sites that depict a woman (supposedly) masturbating while staring at naked women in a magazine. NEVER have I seen depictions of masturbation to males!

I think maybe part of the explanation is that our society really focuses on women as sexual and not really men so much. We see women in bikinis everywhere on TV, and see print ads focusing on beautiful women. Men are not really depicted as being desirable in our society - only as the ones who desire. I think maybe this imagery 'rubs off' on women and they too begin to think only of women as sexually desirable. So, maybe, it comes down to a bit of a conflict in women - their internal sexual drive pushes them toward men, while the ideals of society push them toward other women.

In answer to Portuguese Man'O War's comment, I really think you sell us men short. In nature, it always seems to be the male of the species who are the most 'attractive'. Think of male birds vs female. Most of the time it is the male who has the most colourful feathers, etc. I don't believe the female body is inherently any more attractive than the male's. In fact, again, I think this is a matter of the conditioning that we are exposed to in our society?

Anybody agree?

Last edited by johnnyd (2005-11-13 21:40:42)

sirgeorge · 2005-11-13 22:33:44

johnnyd wrote:

So, maybe, it comes down to a bit of a conflict in women - their internal sexual drive pushes them toward men, while the ideals of society push them toward other women.

shure?
or are little girls breastfeeded by their fathers?

why should that be a conflict?
the question is more: why do have most men difficulties to accept, that there is more than than one and only way to live your inner world, more than one truth to see the outer world, more than one way to be interested in the rest of the world?

Last edited by sirgeorge (2005-11-13 23:27:46)

Ceredwyn · 2005-11-13 23:17:20

johnnyd wrote:

I don't believe the female body is inherently any more attractive than the male's. In fact, again, I think this is a matter of the conditioning that we are exposed to in our society? Anybody agree?

Speaking as a female, I agree completely. I am always a little saddened when men describe their bodies as 'ugly' or 'awkward' - I do quite a lot of life drawing, which involves nude models of both sexes, and both have a lot to recommend them in texture, proportion, and muscletone from an aesthetic point of view. Believe me, there are many, many women who find the male form attractive, and naturally enough, many men as well. I am definitely glad that we have moved past the Grecian ideal of the masculine form being automatically superior in beauty and form, but would like to see us heading towards a general appreciation of both sexes. This is one of the reasons Beautiful Agony is such a pleasant site. The ideals of beauty have taken many forms down through the centuries, and the hope of one that is approachable for all is a wonderful thing.

ruby · 2005-11-14 08:52:32

Portuguese Man'O War wrote:

Well, I actually identify with lesbians a lot because, like them, I really fail to see why on earth anyone of either sex could possibly prefer us men to girls. The staggering majority of heterosexual women is a source of endless wonder to me, to be honest.

This is exactly how I feel- the vast majority of men are completing unaware of their own sensual power or how to access and utilise it. As has been mentioned above, men and boys tend to be vastly lacking in understanding of the 5 stages of female arousal, and usually only see female lubrication as invitation to 'stick it in'.

I have spent a great deal of time trying to find men that are deeply connected to their own sense of sensuality and its power, but they are few and far between in my experience.

There is a recognition of the need for reeducation program, young men need to be matched with older women and as part of an adolescent initiation rite, be shown how to make love..

Of course, when they are at a legal age!

Kdogg2 · 2005-11-14 09:15:09

I'm confident enough in my own self to be able to admit if a guy is good looking, without worrying about homosexuality. But lets be real, you could take the most toned and defined dude on the planet, and he would pale in comparison to the natural folds, creases and curves of a women. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

As far as women fantasing about the kind, soft and sensual male, its probably very hard to imagine. Be it nature or nurture, the males of society are expectded to be seen as strong and verile. Lots of the women I know, want a guy who is capable of beating up a bar full of people, and then coming home, reading poetry and talking about their feelings. This may be a bit of a exaggeration, but you get the gist of what I'm saying. That guy in society, is a huge rarity.

Women are seen as soft and sensual. Women who are fantasing can easily relate to this fact. It has nothing to do with lesbianism per say, as much as it does a simple concept to wrap a fantasy around.

As was stated above, this doesn't mean the end of the male species, but it does mean that we have to think alot less of our wants and more of a females needs. Especially during intimatacy.

I'm am speaking entirely from a males point of view. Taking bits and pieces of things I've read and discussed with women I've known. If anyone feels I've misrepresented things, please enlighten me.

Last edited by Kdogg2 (2005-11-14 09:16:41)

PC elmo · 2005-11-14 16:58:29

Kdogg2 wrote:

I'm am speaking entirely from a males point of view. Taking bits and pieces of things I've read and discussed with women I've known. If anyone feels I've misrepresented things, please enlighten me.

No, that's pretty much what I gather as well. I'm sure we'd each phrase our comments differently every time the topic comes up, but all this is what I'd try to say, too. Even Ruby's suggestion about a reeducation program -- which would probably work best for most as a fantasy in itself!

Writing that brings to mind another fitting query:
Are there (other) men who fantasize about pleasing a woman, not just, you know, having her? Or if this way of saying it clearer, Do the aspects of a mutually fulfilling sexual experience, especially those centered around the woman's satisfaction, play a large role in some men's fantasies?

Clearly that's not present, nor even on the horizon, for the typical "males of society" discussed at length above, which brings me to what I was originally going to ask:
How do different societies encourange this dismal misgrowth? I know in the U.S., ... well, I tried that and it turned into an essay. The dominant influences are predominantly unhealthy, and I have pretty strong feelings about it. I'll just leave it at that. How about anyone else, in other parts of the world?

ad_infinitum · 2005-11-15 00:46:17

Good thread, johnny. Thanks for starting it.

I like everyone's comments so far. One other idea ... Instead of asking why women have same-sex fantasies, I wonder if we should ask why men don't. That is, I wonder if men, on average, are more threatened by homosexuality, and therefore less likely to have those fantasies? Just an idea.

Then again, I'm a straight guy, not at all threatened by homosexuality, and I fantasize exclusively about women, so maybe there's nothing to my theory. Answering elmo's post, all of my fantasies center on women getting off. I mean, that's what I'm doing here, right? ;-)

Mutually pleasurable sex? Beyond that. I pretty much only fantasize about her pleasure, in whatever form. This can be me going down on her, or her masturbating, or, well, any other sex involving her orgasms. (Yes, plural, usually. He he he.)

BA being the (incredible) site it is, I'm guessing you'll find other men here who feel the same way I do. That said, I make no claims of representing men in general. This is just the way I'm wired.

- Ad

Garybob · 2005-11-15 06:28:39

Two things I'd like to respond to:

First, I do not agree with the concept of matching younger "teen" men with older women. In the United States, there are statutory laws against such a thing and I think such laws are wholly appropriate. While it might be an exciting idea for a teen male, the lack of maturity and propensity for emotional damage is too great to venture in that direction. Men mature at a slower rate than women, a position that is well known. That said, I would reiterate the possibility of emotional scars that could ensue from such a match.

As to women and their fantasies, who really knows what "women" fantasize about? Some lesbian women I know sincerely detest the idea of anything to do with a man sexually. Still others, while not touching men, apparently do have some affinity for men and demonstrate this sexually thru the use of prosthetic devices. Yes, I mean BIG OL' DILDOS! Then there are those who equally detest the idea of touching another woman sexually. You get the idea. I think women's fantasies are as varied a men.

Finally, Ruby mentioned her search for the man in touch of his sensuality. I can understand the difficulty in her search. Men are the stereotypical "hunters", except in the Lion kindom. Yet, among human males, there is always an unspoken fear of rejection and/or humiliation that goes with the hunt. Even a seemingly successful "hunt" can result in anxiety over adequate penis size [length & girth], something that society has called a great deal of attention to in an almost underhanded way. Men are really far more sensative than most women think but we are much pros a denial and covering up our insecurities. Using Kdogg's analogy, men prefer to see themselves more as the "bar-fighters" rather than reading poetry and getting a pedicure.

Finally, and I know I'm taking up a lot of space here so I beg your forebearance.

PCElmo asked a very good question. My answer is a resounding ABSOLUTELY!!! I always fantasize about pleasing a woman. Like most guys, I find a great deal of satisfaction in seeing an attractive woman on the street or wherever. And I do have those fleeting thoughts of intimate encounters. Usually, I imagine things like what sort of facial expressions she would make during orgasm, feeling the skin tighten between her inner thighs, seeing her nipples harden and feeling the light film of perspiration at the base of her stomach. I fantasize about a woman's pleasure all the time which is one of the big draws, for me at least, to this site.

erdna · 2005-11-16 06:49:12

Ruby said <<There is a recognition of the need for reeducation program, young men need to be matched with older women and as part of an adolescent initiation rite, be shown how to make love.. >>

ruby, thanks. You speak like the Delphi oracle. I agree 100% with you when you say adolecent boys should be sexually initiated by older women (say a guy of 16-17 and a woman of 25-30 or else). In some rare societies, this is the way.That has been my dream as a teenager but it never happened. I then had to learn with a girl who was like me, a virgin! But in the meantime, I was so curious about sexuality that I read every book I could find on sex. But nothing like practice.
Could you please refresh us about the 5 stages of the female arousal?

salsasalsa · 2005-11-16 12:16:28

Portuguese Man'O War wrote:

Well, I actually identify with lesbians a lot because, like them, I really fail to see why on earth anyone of either sex could possibly prefer us men to girls. The staggering majority of heterosexual women is a source of endless wonder to me, to be honest.

Ah, but that's because you are not a woman. Most women have evolved to respond to male pheromones. There would be no humans around if they hadn't.

salsasalsa · 2005-11-16 12:19:25

johnnyd wrote:

I've seen many web sites that depict a woman (supposedly) masturbating while staring at naked women in a magazine. NEVER have I seen depictions of masturbation to males!

I have seen plenty - women masturbating to pictures of men or to pictures of intercourse. But usually it's a lot more soft focus and less hardcore (both kinds).

salsasalsa · 2005-11-16 12:24:14

Kdogg2 wrote:

Women are seen as soft

I thought this one-dimensional view of women, which is really a product of prudish Victorian society, has died out long ago. Most men (and women) I know value a strong, assertive woman.

salsasalsa · 2005-11-16 12:26:25

PC elmo wrote:

Are there (other) men who fantasize about pleasing a woman, not just, you know, having her? Or if this way of saying it clearer, Do the aspects of a mutually fulfilling sexual experience, especially those centered around the woman's satisfaction, play a large role in some men's fantasies?

Of course. Many men find that the woman being fully satisfied is the greatest turn-on there is.

salsasalsa · 2005-11-16 12:30:17

Garybob wrote:

First, I do not agree with the concept of matching younger "teen" men with older women. In the United States, there are statutory laws against such a thing and I think such laws are wholly appropriate

Maybe in the Deep South, eh? There is nothing illegal or remotely inappropriate in a 17-year old boy (or 18, or 21, or whatever the legal age is in Arkansas these days) having sex with a 30-year old woman.

PC elmo · 2005-11-16 16:47:56

salsasalsa wrote:

Garybob wrote:
First, I do not agree with the concept of matching younger "teen" men with older women. In the United States, there are statutory laws against such a thing and I think such laws are wholly appropriate
Maybe in the Deep South, eh? There is nothing illegal or remotely inappropriate in a 17-year old boy (or 18, or 21, or whatever the legal age is in Arkansas these days) having sex with a 30-year old woman.

True, nothing inappropriate about the sex in itself, but we're also assuming the maturity and motives we're talking about here. I'd say any concerns we have, or have had, about a younger woman with an older man, we should also have about a younger man with an older woman. That's the nature of equality.

Now, whether we should have concerns depends entirely on the individual situation -- if one person is simply out to use another, that's probably not going to be healthy. It takes a special kind of person to be a good teacher. So long as the goal truly is to grow sexually, that's what makes it a "reeducation program" -- age is all but irrelevant.
(as I write this, I get flashbacks to the movie "Harold and Maude" -- rebellious, but on topic)

PC elmo · 2005-11-16 16:52:30

salsasalsa wrote:

PC elmo wrote:
Are there (other) men who fantasize about pleasing a woman, not just, you know, having her? Or if this way of saying it clearer, Do the aspects of a mutually fulfilling sexual experience, especially those centered around the woman's satisfaction, play a large role in some men's fantasies?
Of course. Many men find that the woman being fully satisfied is the greatest turn-on there is.

I'm glad to hear it. It's hard to tell, sometimes, as people today do not often discuss these important things, except in places like this forum.

... then again, we could just be a rare breed. I prefer to think that the world is full of men and women, shall we say, with such good taste -- who just haven't found their way to Beautiful Agony yet!

Garybob · 2005-11-17 04:49:35

Garybob wrote:
First, I do not agree with the concept of matching younger "teen" men with older women. In the United States, there are statutory laws against such a thing and I think such laws are wholly appropriate

Maybe in the Deep South, eh? There is nothing illegal or remotely inappropriate in a 17-year old boy (or 18, or 21, or whatever the legal age is in Arkansas these days) having sex with a 30-year old woman.

Arkansas??? I'm not referring to the proverbial trailer people. "She's my sister; She's my mother; She's my sister AND my mother".

The "legal" age is generally 18 throughout the country. True that in come cases even an 18 year old is not mature enough nad perhaps even a 21 year old either. Argueably, older partners are fine for "teaching". However, the student or potential has/should be mature enough to handle such lessons.

Elmo said that the goal should be to grow sexually. Tell me one teenage boy who wouldn't say ANYTHING to get between an older woman's legs. "Yea dude! I'm doing this because I want to grow sexually. That's my only goal dude". PPFFFFFFFRRT sure. Hell, when I was a teen, I the only sexual growth I was concerned about was in terms of length and girth.

salsasalsa · 2005-11-17 09:56:05

Garybob wrote:

The "legal" age is generally 18 throughout the country. True that in come cases even an 18 year old is not mature enough nad perhaps even a 21 year old either. Argueably, older partners are fine for "teaching". However, the student or potential has/should be mature enough to handle such lessons.
Elmo said that the goal should be to grow sexually. Tell me one teenage boy who wouldn't say ANYTHING to get between an older woman's legs. "Yea dude! I'm doing this because I want to grow sexually. That's my only goal dude". PPFFFFFFFRRT sure. Hell, when I was a teen, I the only sexual growth I was concerned about was in terms of length and girth.

First of all, it was you who claimed that it's 'illegal' in the USA. It isn't. Once someone is of legal age, there are no laws about the permitted age-DIFFERENCE.

Secondly, I really don't like this constant 'should'. It's neither for you nor for Elmo to say what 'should' be the goal, whether or not one 'should' be mature enough. Quite simply, it's none of your affair.

Thirdly, you have no idea what other teenage boys think about. Some couldn't care who the woman is, others do. You extrapolate from your own feelings to those of everyone else, which is not very ... how shall we say ... sound.

PC elmo · 2005-11-17 18:54:25

salsasalsa wrote:

Garybob wrote:
The "legal" age is generally 18 throughout the country. True that in come cases even an 18 year old is not mature enough nad perhaps even a 21 year old either. Argueably, older partners are fine for "teaching". However, the student or potential has/should be mature enough to handle such lessons.
Elmo said that the goal should be to grow sexually. Tell me one teenage boy who wouldn't say ANYTHING to get between an older woman's legs. "Yea dude! I'm doing this because I want to grow sexually. That's my only goal dude". PPFFFFFFFRRT sure. Hell, when I was a teen, I the only sexual growth I was concerned about was in terms of length and girth.
First of all, it was you who claimed that it's 'illegal' in the USA. It isn't. Once someone is of legal age, there are no laws about the permitted age-DIFFERENCE.

I don't see any conflict on that.

...

Thirdly, you have no idea what other teenage boys think about. Some couldn't care who the woman is, others do. You extrapolate from your own feelings to those of everyone else, which is not very ... how shall we say ... sound.

Well, this isn't exactly a graduate thesis!

I was only going to offer these 2 thoughts: It's not about what a teenage boy says to an older woman -- it's about what's really going on. And as for what's really going on, I think most of the time it's the older person who's in a position to "take advantage" of the younger -- most of the time.

Now, throughout this forum, sometimes we can cite an external reference. But usually, just like with casual conversations in real life, we can only rely on our own experiences, and what others have shared with us of their experiences. Sure, it may be more accurate to say something like, "I've never met a teenage boy who wouldn't say ANYTHING to get between an older woman's legs" (to which I could offer that I was one), but, just like with conversations in real life, I get what he's saying.

At least his comment is there for us to discuss! I feel that, just like with conversations in real life, it has a very chilling effect when someone spews 's by exploding all over someone else for any reason, including erroneous extrapolations. I would rather encourage participation whenever possible.

I also find it particularly ironic that the whole point of suggesting the "reeducation program" is that this very extrapolation is not erroneous enough!

PC elmo · 2005-11-17 19:14:57

salsasalsa wrote:

Secondly, I really don't like this constant 'should'. It's neither for you nor for Elmo to say what 'should' be the goal, whether or not one 'should' be mature enough. Quite simply, it's none of your affair.

OK, OK -- ISes are in, OUGHTs are out. Got it. Now let's get back to how all this got started:

ruby wrote:

Portuguese Man'O War wrote:
Well, I actually identify with lesbians a lot because, like them, I really fail to see why on earth anyone of either sex could possibly prefer us men to girls. The staggering majority of heterosexual women is a source of endless wonder to me, to be honest.
This is exactly how I feel- the vast majority of men are completing unaware of their own sensual power or how to access and utilise it. As has been mentioned above, men and boys tend to be vastly lacking in understanding of the 5 stages of female arousal, and usually only see female lubrication as invitation to 'stick it in'.
I have spent a great deal of time trying to find men that are deeply connected to their own sense of sensuality and its power, but they are few and far between in my experience.
There is a recognition of the need for reeducation program, young men need to be matched with older women and as part of an adolescent initiation rite, be shown how to make love..
Of course, when they are at a legal age!

It sounds to me like Ruby has a very good idea what maturity men 'should' ideally have. And since she is having such difficulty finding men who are as mature as they 'should' be, I think it's every bit her affair. (and I happen to agree with her)

At the risk of saying too much (I know, too late), consider this: How many of us, even just those of us reading and participating in the forum, have daughters, sisters, or know women about whom we care deeply? Let's ask ourselves what kind of men we'd prefer pursue them. Let's ask ourselves what kinds of friends we prefer are there for them when they are most vulnerable and most in need of guidance. Let's put ourselves in their shoes and ask what kind of men we'd want to know and we'd want to pursue us and what kind of lover we'd want to find in life. Having an opinion about what constitutes a mature approach to sexuality is very much our affair, and the main reason the problem is still as bad as it is today is because so many of us who see it are not willing enough to share with others what we believe!

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