Lack of variety

dragonbrag · 2005-05-02 17:53:07

I just renewed my membership to this wonderful, innovative site.
This site is spectacularly successful in what it has set out to do, except for one thing. The contributors still all seem to be white, Caucasian and between 20 and 40.
Are U just not receiving contributions from other races and age groups? Or have the operators of this site chosen to focus on white, younger people?
A black woman,a middle-aged businessman, average overweight working "bloke" or an acne-ridden teenager would be a nice change of pace. I think a wife and mother in her early 40s (still attractive but with tired lines in her face)would especially be hot.
I certainly don't want the type of younger, white person who has been contributing to discontinue, but if this site is trying to represent the beauty of the human orgasm there should be some variety.
Any thoughts on this from anyone?

richard · 2005-05-03 00:38:15

We agree, we'd love more diversity but it just isn't being submitted.

rod · 2005-05-05 22:09:26

I like the current mix. Beauty is important too, and although I recognise that this characteristic is subjective, any increase in the emphasis on diversity should not occur at the expense of beauty.

Keep up the good work, Beautiful Agony.

dragonbrag · 2005-05-06 13:42:28

Dear Rod,

An interesting reply. I am going to assume (and of course I may be wrong)that you find only young white women "beautiful" i.e sexually attractive.
I couldn't disagree more. I have had many sexual partners in my life, and I am struck in my memory by how much more "beautiful" they all appeared when having an orgasm. Sexuality is a total experience involving all the senses, not just about how attractive someone appears in a single photograph.
Further, most of the agonees I would hardly consider conventionally attractive in the "model" sense. I find most of them quite sexy, but quite a few of them are too plump/skinny, have less than perfect teeth, have tattoos and piercings that would exclude them from conventional porn. It is precisely these imperfections and hints of a life "outside the camera range" than makes them appeal to me all the more. So I, too, "like the current mix" but I just cannot agree that a woman who is a darker race or over 40 or an older man is less "beautiful" than the ones currently submitting.
I find it sad that one can find site afer site and chat room after chatroom of men willing to show their naked penis as they masturbate and have an orgasm and this seems to be the only one where they are willing to show their face.

However, I do respect your opinion

Jo · 2005-05-06 15:18:07

dragonbrag wrote:

I find it sad that one can find site afer site and chatroom after chatroom of men willing to show their naked penis as they masturbate and have an orgasm and this seems to be the only one where they are willing to show their face.

For me the point is that if you only show your penis you are not as easy to recognize. If you show your FACE, you surely will be recognized and have to admit, that you took part in this project. This requires much more courage than most people have. So I have to concess to all submissioners my highest respect.

And concerning the beauty discussion I agree to you dragonbrag. Beauty is subjective and has much more facettes (as the sites name already wants to tell us) than just visual ones. For me also the motion, the voice or (even more) the eye expressions are an important aspect of beauty... It's the whole behaviour that counts.

lamancha · 2005-05-09 00:23:29

>>>>
white, Caucasian and between 20 and 40
<<<<

This seems to be a problem with the general Suicidegirls / I Shot Myself crowd, and one of the things which puts me off the former; the women are of a definite type. Suicidegirls in particular has people who are almost like interchangeable lego blocks. They are diverse in exactly the same way, each of them.

Beautifulagony is much better than this, not least because it has men. I suppose the fact of it being an internet project narrows the participants down to people who have a home computer, a home, a digital video camera and a broadband connection, and who have heard of Beautifulagony etc. And the spare time and self-confidence to film themselves coming, and the self-confidence to expect that other people will want to watch this; and perhaps the money or security to not care what other people think about them. Self-confidence is a middle-class thing.

Which leads to the problem that, by its very nature, Beautifulagony cannot be anonymous. Unless there is a separate section devoted to torso shots, participants generally have to fit the above criteria. And this is the result.

FBsmith · 2005-05-09 03:04:58

What an awesome website. What makes these vid's so unique, is that they are about the "Big O", and not of it. I'm an artistic photographer, and I'm doing something of this sort, but with a still camera. The key to exciting and beautiful images, no mater what format, is capturing a special moment in time. Maybe I might kick it a notch, and get a vido cmera. Keep up the good work.
FBsmith

msnevil · 2005-05-14 10:18:40

dragonbrag,

It takes wisdom and simple honesty to answer you forth coming.

This is a porn site. Disguised under the label of "Art". But still a porn site, none a less. (And no matter of "rationalizing" will disguise the cold "hard" truth.)

And the goal of this website is Artistic merit and To make money.

Do you honestly think the webmaster could support this website? By accepting every Tom, Dick, And Jane who contributes.

No, the Hard Fact is that "sex sells". And the younger the better. (If its legal.)

You want five or more Contributions. Then they need the revenue to "pay" for that. And letting Us "uglies" contribute will kill this site.

My experience:
(To be honest, I'm fed up with the Whole "porn" bit. I wish, I could tell you that a website with the "ordinary's" having orgasms would sell.

But it doesn't. To be honest, I spent over 2,000$ dollars trying to organize a "fan based website" in a two years Time. I paid Amateurs To contribute. Mostly in the 30-45 Range. And With over 1,000 people subscribed in one time. I only had 10 contribute.)

This website sells to the liberal "artistic" mindset of Generation Y\Z. It provides a avenue of self expression without the need of Nudity. And thus its popular and In. By changing the working dynamics of this website. You cease to have its "attraction" And this website will suffer.

I am a generation X person. I am their "Mom or Dad". And I an sure the contributors dont want to see their Mom or Dad Orgasm.

Jo · 2005-05-14 13:21:14

Hi msnevil (and others),

very interesting thoughts. One the one hand I agree to you (artistic merit, sex sells, self expression reasons,...)

On the other hand I am not sure about the character of this site. You say its porn. I think its Art. Thats a matter of taste. But thats not my main point.

I am a member since the very beginning of this site. And the main idea was (is?) to show the face as the most erotic part of the human body. The site grew and more and more contributors AND subrscibers came. In the first time, I think, the site was pure and the idea stood high. But more and more wishes of the subscribers were mentionned and now there is a struggle between the former idea and the purists (like I am) and some other subscribers, greeding for more options, nudity, more vids and so on... And I am not sure, if THIS may have changed the goal of the site in a very subtle way.

How can the maker of this site put all wishes together under one roof? I don´t want to be richard and fight for my (former?) idea, but also have the need to keep the site running and to fulfil the wishes of the members. Has the character of this site changed? I don´t know, but the RISK is there!

The lack of variety was mentionned. The site started in Australia. Most contributors are Australians (I think). And they are white. As are most of the people who have access to a computer. Computers (still) are existing mainly in western and technicized, civilized countries. Perhaps that explains, why africans or asians are not (or only few) under the submissioners.

The fact, that older people or *uglies* are not shown is a question that I like to be answered by richard. I suppose that somebody *ugly* (which is also a matter of taste!) or *elder* has no interest in self expression on this site for some reason... and therefore does not submit. But I also could imagine that is has to do with the reasons msnevil has mentionned.

Msnevils question really is interesting: if more *uglies* or *elder* agonees took part... could the site survive?

And @richard: Would you 1. like and 2. post such vids if there were some?

joe6pack · 2005-05-14 16:01:25

In my opinion the art vs. porn debate is a bit silly. A lot of people think of art as some sort of objective, eternal, true-or-false quality of an object. I think art only manifests itself in the relation between an object an a person, in other words: art is not inherent in the object itself.

Even if this site has only helped one person explore their sexuality more openly, has learned only one person appreciate omnipresent beauty more fully, all while not doing any harm to other people of course, then I consider it to be art. Consequently, this doesn't mean it has to be art in the eyes of other people.

Jo wrote:

Msnevils question really is interesting: if more *uglies* or *elder* agonees took part... could the site survive?

Well, try reading this letter on the subject. The Domai newsletter archive contains quite a lot of interesting reads by the way.

joe6pack · 2005-05-14 16:12:06

By the way, the arguments about this site being commercial interfering with its artiness reminds me a lot of Rage Against the Machine deciding to sign a deal with a major record label. As you might know they took a lot of flak for this decision as it was quite contradictory to their own philosophy. However, in a non-perfect world you just have to have the guts to decide between two conflicting goals: do I try to reach a significant amount of people with my message or do I stay 100% true to my conviction, thus being doomed to stay in the underground forever or even forced to abandon my project completely.

Remember, changes often occur gradually, not in a revolutionary way. One often has to make compromises along the way.

dragonbrag · 2005-05-14 22:05:30

Dear msnevil,

To reply, I am unsure of your accounting of the generations. I am 38, so by your account I am a Gen X-r? I thought that all x/y gens were younger than that. And I never heard of a Gen Z'r. But that is somewhat beside the point.
I don't agree to your description of the subsribers to this site. I don't consider myself as artistic or with an artistic slant, and I suspect many of the other subscribers are the same.
I agree that porn is too "vanilla" in who it is representing. however here in the US many people, not just Caucasians have access to and can afford the technology necessary to upload a submission. So for the several of you who have made the argument they can't due to financial/social reasons, I must reject that notion. A special effort should be made to get these people to submit.
Also, let me reiterate what I have mentioned before: many of the agonees would not make it on a conventional porn site. Many of the men are too scruffy (and have those ugly little goatees that men of that age seem to think qualify them as rebels), and more than a few women could use a good hairstylist or make-up advice. I can't think that these people qualify as conventionally beautiful as you are implying (just count the snaggleteeth!!!)
I believe the moderators of this site when they say they reject certain videos on technical grounds. If they are rejecting on beauty or handsomness, then they have missed the boat in a couple that they have let thru!!!
Further, when I was 25 I had sexual partners who were my parents age, but I didn't think i was watching Mom or Dad have an orgasm. Perhaps the agonees on this site lump all people of a certain age into one undifferentiated lump, and equate them with Mom and Dad, but that seems an unlikely reason the moderators would reject someone of that age.
And, furthermore, why R U calling both me and yourself an "ugly"? U don't know what I look like and neither I you.
Haven't you ever had great sex with someone who wasn't conventionally attractive? If you haven't then you are really limiting yourself.
Why don't you submit msnevil, and see what happens? say " this is for U, dragonbrag" (he-he)!!

dragonbrag · 2005-05-14 22:20:00

And may I also say that this site give us the opportunity to view only those submissions that we as individuals might find appealing. If someone doesn't want to experience the orgasm of someone who is a certain age/race/sex, then they don't have to. Just don't click on.
It's just that 80% of the agonees so far have been young white women. If you were to judge human sexuality solely by porn, you would believe that only young white women and gay musclestuds/smooth prettyboys could have orgasms! This site has plenty of submissions to appeal to porn's core audience. I don't think this site would lose a significant number of subscribers if it varied the mix every five or six submissions or so.
Finally, i would call this site an alternative site with a pornographic quality, but I wouldn't call it porno since no erect genitals or graphic sexual acts are displayed. Many movies are released to restricted audiences that have simulated orgasms that are almost as real as these.

richard · 2005-05-15 06:51:59

Jo wrote:

Hi msnevil (and others),
...
The fact, that older people or *uglies* are not shown is a question that I like to be answered by richard. I suppose that somebody *ugly* (which is also a matter of taste!) or *elder* has no interest in self expression on this site for some reason... and therefore does not submit. But I also could imagine that is has to do with the reasons msnevil has mentionned.
Msnevils question really is interesting: if more *uglies* or *elder* agonees took part... could the site survive?
And @richard: Would you 1. like and 2. post such vids if there were some?

Jo,
While we've said that we sometimes reject videos on technical grounds, we have hardly ever done so, in fact we don't really reject any tapes, we just put them asside until such time as they might be needed, or appropriate for some part of the site (Overkill for example).

Lauren usually chooses the videos and she looks for reality, and intensity. Maybe she'd like to add her own comments about this. If we don't think it's a genuine orgasm we won't use it, except for Overkill and then you guys can decide. If we have plenty to choose from she'll usually select the most interesting, whether that be in the intenisty of emotion or some quirks which make it remarkable. Age, race or appearance aren't relevant. Gender is. We've discovered (anecdotally) that few straigtht men want to watch other straight men; but almost all women are interested in watching both genders, so we keep the mix about 80% female.

I would love to receive videos from people who aren't young and gorgeous but I guess they don't have the confidence to submit, and less of them are aware of us anyway. If their orgasm is real and interesting then no question, we'd put it on the site. Of course as you point out, the site has to survive financially, so we would always aim to have a percentage of pretty young things, just like any media (movie casts for e.g.). If, hypothetically, we had access to any faces we wanted, I think a good mix might be something like 2/3 "classically attractive", with a racial mix which roughly matches the audience, and 1/3 "quirky".

The dual agony, #267, was very popular, so we'll look favourably at more of that kind of thing, but I think it only worked so well because it was their idea to do a duet so we'll just have to wait patiently for more to come our way (heh).

Ell · 2005-05-15 08:40:57

I wonder if older people may feel they have more to risk or more at stake by participating? That is said with absolute respect Mr Richard and Ms Lauren...Sex and masturbation, especially inviting people to watch you orgasm is still pretty much taboo I'd imagine in most people's minds. Admitting you like to watch may well be another .

I'm not saying that I support that notion, just putting forward as a possible perceived barrier to getting a wider cross section of age groups. I do know a forty something year old with a few lines around her eyes who occasionally thinks about it...:)

richard · 2005-05-15 13:22:33

Ell wrote:

I'm not saying that I support that notion, just putting forward as a possible perceived barrier to getting a wider cross section of age groups. I do know a forty something year old with a few lines around her eyes who occasionally thinks about it...:)

Perhaps you could giive this, er, mystery person a prod along! Show these flibbitygibbits that they don't have the franchise on ecstasy!

msnevil · 2005-05-24 06:44:15

Sorry, For the delay in responding.

1)While Nudity is considered Art. Since in its natural form is not sexual. (Unless Body language dictates otherwise. Nude volleyball vs. Spread Eagle.) Orgasms usually do involve Masturbation. A "Form" of soft core "porn". Even if it only shows the Face.

If You can refine the terms for normative "Western" culture. Then perhaps it could be considered "Art". (Who knows this website might be a Trend sender of Modern Culture.)

2)Unless you are "sculpted" By Hollywood ideals. In the US, Then you are a "Ugly". EU and Oz Ideals, I have no idea about.

3)Imagine a 240lb Troll and you got me. The Mrs though looks like a Elf. But If we contributed. We would lose our Jobs and our Friends\Family. Porn is a Fire worthy offense in our "puritanal" America. But thanks for the thoughts anyways.

4)Don't know if "quirky" and flibbitygibbits
is a Term of offense or not?

asm2agny · 2005-05-24 12:23:14

msnevil wrote:

If we contributed. We would lose our Jobs and our Friends\Family. Porn is a Fire worthy offense in our "puritanal" America.

Would you really?

Consider friends and family: First, how many of them are likely to be subscribers here? If they are subscribers, why is it any more accceptable for them to be looking at "porn" than for you to me making "porn"? And is your brother or uncle or friend really going to tell your parents that they saw your video here?

The same thing for your job: The people who see you here aren't going to say anything to your boss because they'd have to also say how they saw you. And, I'm betting that people who subscribe to this web site aren't going to send your boss an anonymous tip; I mean, what would they have to gain from that? What would possibly motivate them to do that?

Last edited by asm2agny (2005-05-24 12:23:52)

syzygy · 2005-05-24 15:24:08

All due respect, asm, but one thing I learned from my forty year career in the business world, is that you don't trust anyone-- especially people who smile in your face, say you are their friend, and worm into your confidence.

One thing I will say for people who try to undercut you in meetings or recall your shortcomings in front of the bosses, at least you know where you stand with them.

The few times I have forgotten my own advice on this subject, I have been burned. Scalded is more like it.

I love this site and the people who choose to be on it. God bless them.

But msnevil makes a good point. What could motivate them? Ummm. . .knocking you down a notch so they can step on your head on their way up, for one.

Last edited by syzygy (2005-05-24 15:25:38)

Sleep · 2005-05-25 12:24:10

i like the site the way it is right now. So please don't change it.

Younger is better.

If something has to change, that would be the update frequency. 1 video a day is not enough.. 2 would be better,... actually, make that 10 videos a day

im 32 years old and still get exited when i see a 18 yr old naked girl. Thats because my brain is still young and i still feel young. I beleive a 18 yr girl will still exite me even when i'll be 100 yr old.

Every girls that i dated in my life were always younger than me.

There is one thing missing about this site though.

I wish the webmaster could release 1 bio video of every top chicks, (dressed, outdoor, at work)... sort of short video (to know them better before they come). The feeling you get from watching a random girl comming and a girl you actually know who comes is totally different.

My favorite agony babe is 224. I can't stop watching her. I wish there was a video of her where we could see her whole body (naked and dressed)

258 is not bad either, i think that 258 lives in my area. because ive seen her somewhere, i can't remember where. BTW, judging from the way she talks 258 is a smart and educated girl, probably with an university degree or still doing it.

As for the Porn vs Art debate, i find it sily to debate about it. It's like comparing Apple and Orange.

Porn has always been a form of art, even hardcore gangbang stuff. It can be porn and art at the same time you know.

Dont change the site please. Younger is better.

Last edited by Sleep (2005-05-25 12:26:12)

Sleep · 2005-05-25 12:32:28

syzygy wrote:

All due respect, asm, but one thing I learned from my forty year career in the business world, is that you don't trust anyone-- especially people who smile in your face, say you are their friend, and worm into your confidence.
One thing I will say for people who try to undercut you in meetings or recall your shortcomings in front of the bosses, at least you know where you stand with them.
The few times I have forgotten my own advice on this subject, I have been burned. Scalded is more like it.

I used to think like that too. If you work in a office environment where everybody are killing each other to obtain promotions and stuff.

But not everyone are untrustworthy. Some people can be trusted. like your family.

If you don't trust the person next to you, that person will feel it, and may behave the same towards you. Thus could explain why you always perceive everyone to be untrusted.

Learn to trust people and you will see how trust can be obtained even from the worst people.

TonyComstock · 2005-05-25 12:43:05

Finally, a thread I can offer some commentary born of experience.

When we began our most recent round of production, we tried to cast as wide a net as possible on age, race, sexual proclivity, etc. To that end we put quite a bit of effort into advertising our "casting call" and offered generous compensation ($1K/person). Our respondent were overwhelmning young and white. In this country the socio-economic demographic that would hear about or consider participating in the work we do is overwhelmingly young and white.

As far as the art/commerce question goes, to my mind that's just a bunch of bullshit. You do what you do. No one ever failed to have commercial success because they were "true to their vision" and no one ever failed to be true to their vision because they sold out. You do what you do. It might be commercially viable, it might not. You might feel like you've compramized your vision, you might not. You do what you do. If you're very talented and very lucky, you might get a chance to "sell out", but mostly you do what you do.

I do get my back up a little when folks who aren't putting their vision or their money on the line accuse those who do of failing to be "true", or have "sold out". If you don't like what you see, if you want another take on things, then do it yourself. There's nothing stopping you except that your time, effort and money might be wasted.

-T.C.

syzygy · 2005-05-25 14:17:17

Replying to asm2agny:

Glad this works for you, asm. I'm 59 and way too tired to argue about this sort of thing. Let's just say I've trusted people and been screwed over so many times now that Norman Vicent Peale-ish comments like yours roll off my back.

For one thing, I've got over $100,000 worth of holes in my bank account to remind me daily about the people I trusted with credit.

Frankly, I'm retiring next week and I'll leave the business world to the rest of you. For the record, yes, there are a handful of people I trust -- my wife and a couple of close relatives.

I'm sure you're a nice person. Trust me, I wish you all the best.

Last edited by syzygy (2005-05-25 14:24:21)

PC elmo · 2005-05-31 20:57:07

asm2agny wrote:

msnevil wrote:
If we contributed. We would lose our Jobs and our Friends\Family. Porn is a Fire worthy offense in our "puritanal" America.
Would you really?

Unfortunately, I must concur with MSNevil. It's particularly bad if someone already
has some public visibility in a position that's supposed to be taken seriously (i.e. not an actor or other entertainer). I seem to recall hearing not too long ago about a news anchorwoman who lost her job due to her actions at a particularly wild party
(and some of those events appearing on a website).

Hell, there's a story just recently about companies wanting to test all their employees to see if they smoke -- not just during breaks, but ever! It supposedly
has something to do with insurance costs. The implication, of course, is that even smoking over the weekend or in your apartment at night could soon become a fire-worthy offense, let alone appearing on the internet in a sexually explicit situation.

Apparently, though most with any influence in the U.S. know the mantras about the importance of freedom, time and again that mental priority gets trumped by the emotional reality of fear, mistrust, discomfort, and all manor of negative feelings toward anything even remotely unfamiliar or out of the established routine. This effect is particularly acute when it comes to the human body, sexual or not.

It makes me want to travel more, see the world, visit places like, say, Australia! Maybe someday...

syzygy · 2005-05-31 22:03:37

PC elmo wrote:

asm2agny wrote:
msnevil wrote:
If we contributed. We would lose our Jobs and our Friends\Family. Porn is a Fire worthy offense in our "puritanal" America.
Would you really?

Apparently, though most with any influence in the U.S. know the mantras about the importance of freedom, time and again that mental priority gets trumped by the emotional reality of fear, mistrust, discomfort, and all manor of negative feelings toward anything even remotely unfamiliar or out of the established routine. This effect is particularly acute when it comes to the human body, sexual or not.
It makes me want to travel more, see the world, visit places like, say, Australia! Maybe someday...

Thank you, PC Elmo. I wish to heck we did live in a less repressed society.

And yes, I would like to travel to Australia myself. I am starting to love that country more every day.

#1 2005-05-02 17:53:07

Lack of variety

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